Rod Donald's cause of death still NOT "determined"? What is Myocarditis?

Post by JAS
http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/myocarditis.htm What is Myocarditis?
http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic1534.htm
Some have suggested that Rod Donald's cause of death still not determined?
No hard evidence has emerged that it was viral myocarditis, a very rare
disease. So far I have seen no reports that the virus was isolated during
his autopsy. It is only an "opinion" Christchurch pathologist Martin Safe,

What a load of crap.

What evidence of viral myocarditis do you want? He had the
characteristic myocyte necrosis and inflammatory infiltrate on the
slides of his cardiac muscle, characteristic of myocarditis. Nay
DIAGNOSTIC of myocarditis. He had the marked oedematous lungs caused by
cardiac failure caused by necrosis of myocytes caused by viral infection
and the immune response to same. He had the mechanism of illness and
death entirely consistent with enteroviral infection, gastroenteritis
followed by cough and breathlessness and sudden death.

When the PCR is back they'll also identify the specific virus, but that
won't be 'hard evidence' to you either

A question for you....what other mechanism of death is accounted for by
a brief gastrointestinal illness followed by breathlessness, cough,
sudden death, florid pulmonary oedema, marked cardiomyopathy, myocyte
necrosis and inflammation on histology? What external agent can be
administered to cause such a picture? What other agent replicates the
microscopy characteristic of viral myocarditis?

You are officially a nut

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

GreenBaitor

2005-11-11 23:11:55 UTC

Peese orf warnker

I seepaws yee deed thee ortopsee yaself?

Kerry

2005-11-12 01:26:54 UTC

Peese orf warnker
I seepaws yee deed thee ortopsee yaself?

I listened to the pathologist. It was made quite clear

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-13 20:21:08 UTC

Peese orf warnker
I seepaws yee deed thee ortopsee yaself?

From the Guardian on the nature of some Doctors' credibility:

US military doctors routinely wrote "heart attack" on the death
certificate of prisoners who had died from other causes, sometimes during
interrogation.

"It's astonishing. They are all heart attack victims. They even write heart
attack when the detainee died because he was shot. We have dozens of cases
like this," the coalition source told the Guardian.

The source added: "Our lawyer is familiar with the phrase heart attack, and
what it really means." Adil Mohammad Alami, a lawyer with the Human Rights
Organisation of Iraq, said: "We have numerous cases where the US military
kills someone, takes their ID, and then dumps their body at the morgue
without any credentials."

According to medical sources at Baghdad's main forensic medico-legal
institute, keeping Jamadi's body refrigerated for three months made it
difficult to establish the real cause of his death. "You can only do an
autopsy for the first 40 days. After that the body changes," one senior
doctor said. "The cell tissue in the body deteriorates and the blood clots."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1228666,00.html

JAS

2005-11-12 01:21:22 UTC

And WHERE did you read this? I have looked far and wide and not seen this
written. However, it could very well be true...just point me in the right
direction of the hard evidence...you know SOURCES, please.

Post by Kerry
A question for you....what other mechanism of death is accounted for by
a brief gastrointestinal illness followed by breathlessness, cough,
sudden death, florid pulmonary oedema, marked cardiomyopathy, myocyte
necrosis and inflammation on histology? What external agent can be
administered to cause such a picture? What other agent replicates the
microscopy characteristic of viral myocarditis?
You are officially a nut
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Xtra News

2005-11-12 04:46:41 UTC

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause of death and it is
pretty clear. I am glad for the family that it is "just one of those
things" It will help in their grief I am sure.

JAS

2005-11-12 22:25:19 UTC

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause of death and it is
pretty clear. I am glad for the family that it is "just one of those
things" It will help in their grief I am sure.

Can YOU tell me where you have read that this death is more than an opinion,
please? and provide a source.

Kerry

2005-11-12 22:38:57 UTC

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause of death and it is
pretty clear. I am glad for the family that it is "just one of those
things" It will help in their grief I am sure.

Can YOU tell me where you have read that this death is more than an opinion,
please? and provide a source.

There's no way of helping the willfully ignorant

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 22:51:49 UTC

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause of death and it is
pretty clear. I am glad for the family that it is "just one of those
things" It will help in their grief I am sure.

Can YOU tell me where you have read that this death is more than an opinion,
please? and provide a source.

There's no way of helping the willfully ignorant.

Apparently Kerry you are proving this statement. I have been asking you for
two days to provide a source to back up your statements that may be crazy,
willfully ignorant, or in fact correct. I am giving you the benefit of the
doubt without insulting you. please return the favor and kindly provide a
source to back up your statements.

Alan Keatinge

2005-11-13 03:30:14 UTC

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause of death and it is
pretty clear. I am glad for the family that it is "just one of those
things" It will help in their grief I am sure.

Can YOU tell me where you have read that this death is more than an opinion,
please? and provide a source.

There's no way of helping the willfully ignorant.

Reading "Jas's stupid comments confirms what I have suspected for a
long time, that most who contribute to this group are complete
nutters.

Alan Keatinge

John B

2005-11-13 06:25:24 UTC

On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 11:51:49 +1300, "JAS"

Post by JAS
http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/myocarditis.htm What is
Myocarditis?
http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic1534.htm
Some have suggested that Rod Donald's cause of
death still not determined?
No hard evidence has emerged that it was viral
myocarditis, a very rare
disease. So far I have seen no reports that the
virus was isolated during
his autopsy. It is only an "opinion" Christchurch
pathologist Martin Safe,

What a load of crap.

Yup Kerry, sounds like they have diagnosed the cause
of death and it is pretty clear. I am glad for the
family that it is "just one of those things" It will
help in their grief I am sure.

Can YOU tell me where you have read that this death is
more than an opinion,
please? and provide a source.

There's no way of helping the willfully ignorant.

Apparently Kerry you are proving this statement. I have
been asking you for two days to provide a source to back
up your statements that may be crazy, willfully
ignorant, or in fact correct. I am giving you the
benefit of the doubt without insulting you. please
return the favor and kindly provide a source to back up
your statements.

Reading "Jas's stupid comments confirms what I have
suspected for a long time, that most who contribute to
this group are complete nutters.
Alan Keatinge

You'll feel right at home then.

JAS

2005-11-13 08:07:50 UTC

Post by Alan Keatinge

Post by JAS
Apparently Kerry you are proving this statement. I have been asking you for
two days to provide a source to back up your statements that may be crazy,
willfully ignorant, or in fact correct. I am giving you the benefit of the
doubt without insulting you. please return the favor and kindly provide a
source to back up your statements.

Reading "Jas's stupid comments confirms what I have suspected for a
long time, that most who contribute to this group are complete
nutters.
Alan Keatinge

Yeah sure. Asking for a link or source is stupid.

If a doctor said in his OPINION that someone died of a fatal cancer, stroke,
or car crash after an autopsy that showed cancer, evidence of the stroke or
crushed internal organs due to a car crash... one would think it a bit
strange, since proof exists. They do not say opinion in these cases.
"Opinion" implies some doubt.

However, it does look like it was Myocarditis according to the doctor... but
is not definite. Actually, I admit that Kerry explained it well.

Peter Metcalfe

2005-11-13 08:33:10 UTC

Post by JAS
If a doctor said in his OPINION that someone died of a fatal cancer, stroke,
or car crash after an autopsy that showed cancer, evidence of the stroke or
crushed internal organs due to a car crash... one would think it a bit
strange, since proof exists. They do not say opinion in these cases.

Wrong. They do.

Post by JAS
"Opinion" implies some doubt.

Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

--Peter Metcalfe

JAS

2005-11-13 20:08:12 UTC

Wrong. They do.

Are you doctor? So a doctor would say "In my OPINION he died in a car
crash"? "In my OPINION She died due to her cancer"? I don't know. I suppose
I should have said, in my opinion they don't.

(It is possible.)

Post by JAS
"Opinion" implies some doubt.

Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

In Law it is. In science, "opinion" is based on an evaluation resulting from
observing facts. The general view of "opinion" means "personal view".

My problem is that the media has not spelled out the facts and have only
stated the word "opinion" of a doctor which many readers (who are not
lawyers or scientists) conclude as the third and most common definition - a
"personal view" by someone with credibility, but not the facts (the evidence
of the myocarditis). Myocarditis by virus is in fact suspected, but not a
definitive fact like cancer which is clearly visible.

Post by Peter Metcalfe
--Peter Metcalfe

Peter Metcalfe

2005-11-13 21:21:49 UTC

Wrong. They do.

Are you doctor?

No, but I do know expert witnesses and professional opinion and the
reasons why they state their diagnoses as opinions.

Post by JAS
"Opinion" implies some doubt.

Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

In Law it is. In science, "opinion" is based on an evaluation resulting from
observing facts.

And the problem with this is what?

Post by JAS
My problem is that the media has not spelled out the facts and have only
stated the word "opinion" of a doctor which many readers (who are not
lawyers or scientists) conclude as the third and most common definition - a
"personal view" by someone with credibility, but not the facts (the evidence
of the myocarditis).

So your problem is with the media, not the doctor. Or perhaps the
media overestimated the intelligence of their readership.

Post by JAS
Myocarditis by virus is in fact suspected, but not a
definitive fact like cancer which is clearly visible.

It is more than suspected, it, in lay terms, is known to beyond
the balance of probabilities to be the case with no evidence
for any other hypothesis.

--Peter Metcalfe

JAS

2005-11-13 23:52:59 UTC

Post by JAS
If a doctor said in his OPINION that someone died of a fatal cancer, stroke,
or car crash after an autopsy that showed cancer, evidence of the
stroke
or
crushed internal organs due to a car crash... one would think it a bit
strange, since proof exists. They do not say opinion in these cases.

Wrong. They do.

Are you doctor?

No, but I do know expert witnesses and professional opinion and the
reasons why they state their diagnoses as opinions.

Post by JAS
"Opinion" implies some doubt.

Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

In Law it is. In science, "opinion" is based on an evaluation resulting from
observing facts.

And the problem with this is what?

The observable facts may not add up to a correct "opinion".

So your problem is with the media, not the doctor. Or perhaps the
media overestimated the intelligence of their readership.

Perhaps. Most people use (and know) popular definition -as a personal
evaluation. that does not make them ignorant.

Post by JAS
Myocarditis by virus is in fact suspected, but not a
definitive fact like cancer which is clearly visible.

It is more than suspected, it, in lay terms, is known to beyond
the balance of probabilities to be the case with no evidence
for any other hypothesis.

This is what your friend said? If so then fine.

Post by Peter Metcalfe
--Peter Metcalfe

Peter Metcalfe

2005-11-14 01:11:00 UTC

Post by Peter Metcalfe
Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

In Law it is. In science, "opinion" is based on an evaluation resulting
from observing facts.

And the problem with this is what?

The observable facts may not add up to a correct "opinion".

In the absence of any other likely cause of death suggested
by the evidence, the opinion is most probably correct. And
if there were evidence of other likely causes of death, the
pathologist would have mentioned them and said he could not
tell whether A or B caused the death.

Post by Peter Metcalfe
So your problem is with the media, not the doctor. Or perhaps the
media overestimated the intelligence of their readership.

Perhaps. Most people use (and know) popular definition -as a personal
evaluation. that does not make them ignorant.

Most knowledgable people also know that doctors and scientists
also use opinion in a different way.

--Peter Metcalfe

JAS

2005-11-15 07:14:53 UTC

Post by Peter Metcalfe
Wrong again. When a scientist uses opinion, he or she really
means a professional opinion, which is his or her judgement
based on a) expert knowledge and b) known facts.

In Law it is. In science, "opinion" is based on an evaluation resulting
from observing facts.

And the problem with this is what?

The observable facts may not add up to a correct "opinion".

Post by Peter Metcalfe
So your problem is with the media, not the doctor. Or perhaps the
media overestimated the intelligence of their readership.

Perhaps. Most people use (and know) popular definition -as a personal
evaluation. that does not make them ignorant.

Most knowledgable people also know that doctors and scientists
also use opinion in a different way.
--Peter Metcalfe

You are probably right on this one:)

Tilly

2005-11-12 09:23:53 UTC

Post by Kerry
You are officially a nut

I thought JAS was officially declared a nut years ago.

--
***@hotmail.com

JAS

2005-11-12 22:24:13 UTC

Post by Kerry
You are officially a nut

I thought JAS was officially declared a nut years ago.

You may have, but the borderline insane such as you often try to distract
attention away from their own illness.

Post by Tilly
--

JAS

2005-11-12 03:17:22 UTC

What evidence of viral myocarditis do you want? He had the
characteristic myocyte necrosis and inflammatory infiltrate on the
slides of his cardiac muscle, characteristic of myocarditis. Nay
DIAGNOSTIC of myocarditis. He had the marked oedematous lungs caused by
cardiac failure caused by necrosis of myocytes caused by viral infection
and the immune response to same.

And HOW do you know this? Were you there? Did you see the actual report; if
so how and where ...still waiting.

Post by Kerry
When the PCR is back they'll also identify the specific virus, but that
won't be 'hard evidence' to you either.

YES it will. this is what I was asking for...to identify the specific virus.
It is NOT in yet, therefore conjecture.

Post by Kerry
You are officially a nut

You are officially a fraud.

Post by Kerry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Kerry

2005-11-11 21:59:36 UTC

You do not understand English methinks. Doctors are asked to make
diagnoses and give opinions as to cause of death. He diagnosed
myocarditis, in his opinion this was the mechanism of death, based upon
the demonstrable facts, and the absolutely characteristic findings.
That does not mean there is an alternative opinion, or any disagreement
with his findings. Viral myocarditis is a well recognised cause of
sudden death in fit healthy people

30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

grumpyoldhori

2005-11-11 22:42:07 UTC

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year

Eat,drink,and make merry etc.
grumpy

GreenBaitor

2005-11-11 23:13:25 UTC

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

I think you mean APPROX 30 people ... 30 every year as you suggest is a
nonsense!

When will we get some intelligent medical people posting here?

-Newsman-

2005-11-11 23:22:15 UTC

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

I think you mean APPROX 30 people ... 30 every year as you suggest is a
nonsense!
When will we get some intelligent medical people posting here?

There are one or two whose behaviour suggests various medical
connections, but how many of them would you trust over and above
face-to-face advice from your regular GP or specialist?

GreenBaitor

2005-11-11 23:35:27 UTC

Post by -Newsman-

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

I think you mean APPROX 30 people ... 30 every year as you suggest is a
nonsense!
When will we get some intelligent medical people posting here?

There are one or two whose behaviour suggests various medical
connections, but how many of them would you trust over and above
face-to-face advice from your regular GP or specialist?

NOT ONE in here ! Hell only a fool openly believes a GP with no question.

Kerry

2005-11-12 01:26:07 UTC

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

I think you mean APPROX 30 people ... 30 every year as you suggest is a
nonsense!

Yes approx 30, 28 people in the last published stats in 2001. Sometimes
more, sometimes less

I didn't realise you were so literal. Asperger's thing?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Xtra News

2005-11-12 04:47:48 UTC

Post by Kerry
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

I think you mean APPROX 30 people ... 30 every year as you suggest is a
nonsense!

Yes approx 30, 28 people in the last published stats in 2001. Sometimes
more, sometimes less
I didn't realise you were so literal. Asperger's thing?

Oh low blow :)

Peter

2005-11-11 23:38:37 UTC

Post by Kerry
You do not understand English methinks. Doctors are asked to make
diagnoses and give opinions as to cause of death. He diagnosed
myocarditis, in his opinion this was the mechanism of death, based upon
the demonstrable facts, and the absolutely characteristic findings.
That does not mean there is an alternative opinion, or any disagreement
with his findings. Viral myocarditis is a well recognised cause of
sudden death in fit healthy people
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year

The key thing obviously is that the pathologist could find no other cause of
death. IMO some of the speculation in this ng and elsewhere has been
unwarranted and most unkind. I would portray Rod as the sort of guy with a
robust personality who is very capable of dealing with life's ups and downs
- like when he made light of his un-wellness and joined his party mates in
Hamilton the week before. Not the sort of guy where depression would lead
to physical health issues.

JAS

2005-11-13 20:13:18 UTC

Post by Peter

He was under a lot of pressure..especially with the election being "rigged"
with the last minute EB- National letter drop to most NZ'ers ...which
probably shaved off enough votes to keep him out of
coalition...http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0510/S00148.htm

"Brash: I knew they were going to issue some pamphlets
attacking the Government, and I said, "That's tremendous. I'm delighted
about that because the Government is lousy and should be changed." Today it
became known that the Chief Electoral Office has referred a complaint
concerning the pamphlets that 'delighted' Dr Brash to the police.

Brethren group face police probe over anti-Green propaganda
The Green Party is pleased the Chief Electoral Officer has upheld its
complaint that the Exclusive Brethren's "Beware" pamphlet may have breached
the Electoral Act.....

Mr Henry said: "I have concluded that the leaflet does appear to promote the
party vote for National. I have decided to refer the matter to police for
investigation as to whether an person has breached section 221 of the
Electoral Act 1993, and if so, whether any prosecution in terms of section
221(4) is appropriate."

Co-Leader Rod Donald says: "while I am pleased with the outcome of the
complaint, there is no way this will undo the damage done to the Green Party
by the leaflets during the election campaign.

"To add insult to injury, Even if the 'full force' of the law comes down on
the Exclusive Brethren they will only face a maximum $3000 fine.

"Their prosecution will be nothing more than a slap on the wrist with a wet
pamphlet for the obviously wealthy members of the church.

"In our view their underhanded behaviour should be a summary offence, which
would result in a fine of up to $100,000.

JAS

2005-11-12 01:25:55 UTC

You do not understand English methinks. Doctors are asked to make
diagnoses and give opinions as to cause of death. He diagnosed
myocarditis, in his opinion this was the mechanism of death, based upon
the demonstrable facts, and the absolutely characteristic findings.
That does not mean there is an alternative opinion, or any disagreement
with his findings. Viral myocarditis is a well recognised cause of
sudden death in fit healthy people
30 fit healthy people die of viral myocarditis in NZ every year,

Where did you read this? I still have not read that they had "demonstrable
facts" after reading about 5 reports. Perhaps you have better sources than
me. I'd like to see them, please.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0511/S00145.htm

"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well recognised cause of sudden death,
he said."

Post by Kerry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Kerry

2005-11-12 01:31:19 UTC

Where did you read this? I still have not read that they had "demonstrable
facts" after reading about 5 reports. Perhaps you have better sources than
me. I'd like to see them, please.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0511/S00145.htm
"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well recognised cause of sudden death,
he said."

NZ Health Information Statistics of causes of mortality in NZ. 2001
edition (the most recent years stats are not published.) The 2001 stats
were published in October 2005, I have them in my hand. In 2001 there
were 28 cases of death attributed to viral myocarditis.

Hard though it may be for you to understand JAS, you don't know
everything

Heck you don;t even look very far in an attempt to understand this
issue. Scoop?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 01:53:21 UTC

Where did you read this? I still have not read that they had
"demonstrable
facts" after reading about 5 reports. Perhaps you have better sources than
me. I'd like to see them, please.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0511/S00145.htm
"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well recognised cause of sudden death,
he said."

NZ Health Information Statistics of causes of mortality in NZ. 2001
edition (the most recent years stats are not published.) The 2001 stats
were published in October 2005, I have them in my hand. In 2001 there
were 28 cases of death attributed to viral myocarditis.
Hard though it may be for you to understand JAS, you don't know
everything

Of course not, I never said I did. I simply asked you to give me the facts.
You did. Thanks. A link would be nice as well, but I'll take your word for
it. Now I'd like to see some evidence that this cause of death is more than
an "opinion".

Kerry

2005-11-12 05:39:31 UTC

Post by Kerry
NZ Health Information Statistics of causes of mortality in NZ. 2001
edition (the most recent years stats are not published.) The 2001 stats
were published in October 2005, I have them in my hand. In 2001 there
were 28 cases of death attributed to viral myocarditis.
Hard though it may be for you to understand JAS, you don't know
everything

A pathologist always gives an opinion on cause of death. She/he does
this based upon the mechanism of death and the concrete scientific
findings. The concrete scientific findings in this case support 100%
his proffered 'opinion' that Donald died of myocarditis.

And I am sure his opinion is correct

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Myftrefs Voleftrangler Snr.

2005-11-12 06:59:13 UTC

Give up. There's no way you can prove that myocarditis powder hasn't
been invented by the Vogons and traded with the EB/Roundtable/Villain-du
jour in return for a poetry reading venue.

Some people inhabit a parallel universe. Face the facts, your reality
cannot touch them.

A L P

Jaz

2005-11-12 08:19:27 UTC

Post by Myftrefs Voleftrangler Snr.

Give up. There's no way you can prove that myocarditis powder hasn't
been invented by the Vogons and traded with the EB/Roundtable/Villain-du
jour in return for a poetry reading venue.
Some people inhabit a parallel universe. Face the facts, your reality
cannot touch them.

Give me a break, jerk. I only was asking for a link to a source that proves
his point. I am a skeptic. NO one has yet presented any substantial
evidence.

Post by Myftrefs Voleftrangler Snr.
A L P

BMR

2005-11-11 22:18:33 UTC

Post by JAS
On the other hand it is likely; this disease is hard to pinpoint. He was
supposedly ill with a chest infection the week before. No doubt he was run
down with the stress of the election -especially the alleged real
conspiracy of the Exclusive Brethren (who also "helped" Bush) -National
million dollar libel mail drop which caused a drop in Green votes -not
enough to knock them out as National hoped, but enough to prevent them
from going into coalition. Rod was the main spokesperson for the Greens
and their most articulate member.

As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility when
you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.

It's a great pity.

BMR.

steve

2005-11-11 22:30:26 UTC

Post by JAS
On the other hand it is likely; this disease is hard to pinpoint. He was
supposedly ill with a chest infection the week before. No doubt he was
run down with the stress of the election -especially the alleged real
conspiracy of the Exclusive Brethren (who also "helped" Bush) -National
million dollar libel mail drop which caused a drop in Green votes -not
enough to knock them out as National hoped, but enough to prevent them
from going into coalition. Rod was the main spokesperson for the Greens
and their most articulate member.

As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

Yes...such poor judgement on your part is a great pity.

BMR

2005-11-12 00:21:46 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the polices
they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being forced to by
the existing government.

The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies, that
otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I will not
vote for them.

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgment on your part is a great pity.

I'd like to suggest that should not be so quick to jump to conclusions when
you next reply to my message ;)

BMR.

steve

2005-11-12 01:00:27 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the polices
they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being forced to by
the existing government.

Good. Very sensible of you.

Post by BMR
The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies,
that otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I
will not vote for them.

Which policies do you regard as "extreme"?

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgment on your part is a great pity.

I'd like to suggest that should not be so quick to jump to conclusions
when you next reply to my message ;)
BMR.

But!!!!! :-)

I took you at your word....Perhaps you could be less ambiguous?

:-)

JAS

2005-11-12 22:28:45 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the polices
they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being forced to by
the existing government.

Good. Very sensible of you.

Post by BMR
The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies,
that otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I
will not vote for them.

Which policies do you regard as "extreme"?

The reality is that their economic polices ..seen as extreme by the big
business run corporate press, is in fact to the right of many developed
nations...and to the right of what was considered the norm form much of the
second half of the 20th century. ...but the field has been shifted far to
the right in recent years.

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgment on your part is a great pity.

I'd like to suggest that should not be so quick to jump to conclusions
when you next reply to my message ;)
BMR.

But!!!!! :-)
I took you at your word....Perhaps you could be less ambiguous?
:-)

JAS

2005-11-12 01:41:15 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the polices
they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being forced to by
the existing government.
The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies,
that otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I
will not vote for them.

The so called "extreme policies" such as calling to "look into" a capital
gains tax that would exclude family homes is not extreme by global standards
NZ had one for much of the 20th century. Most, if not all other developed
counties still have one. Even conservative business people are calling for
one now since unfettered investing in the housing market is causing
inflation and interest rates to rise ...causing the dollar to be overvalued
and hurting real industry (that experts).

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgment on your part is a great pity.

I'd like to suggest that should not be so quick to jump to conclusions
when you next reply to my message ;)
BMR.

BMR

2005-11-12 21:06:29 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the
polices they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being
forced to by the existing government.
The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies,
that otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I
will not vote for them.

The so called "extreme policies" such as calling to "look into" a capital
gains tax that would exclude family homes is not extreme by global
standards NZ had one for much of the 20th century. Most, if not all other
developed counties still have one. Even conservative business people are
calling for one now since unfettered investing in the housing market is
causing inflation and interest rates to rise ...causing the dollar to be
overvalued and hurting real industry (that experts).

Since you have decided that the Capital gains tax issue is one of your
extreme policies, let's talk about that.

Most countries that employ a capital gains tax, also either have a higher
personal/company tax threshold than NZ, or have a lower rate (for example
Ireland). These countries also operate a significantly lower budget surplus
than we do.

In your view, what will be the long term effect on the economy of a capital
gains tax on investment property?

BMR.

steve

2005-11-12 01:00:27 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

No I don't discount "valid" policy - infact I practice some of the polices
they wish to see enshrined in legislation, without even being forced to by
the existing government.

Good. Very sensible of you.

Post by BMR
The problem is that I disagree with a number of their extreme policies,
that otherwise (IMO) taint some sound reasoning and logic. THAT is why I
will not vote for them.

Which policies do you regard as "extreme"?

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgment on your part is a great pity.

I'd like to suggest that should not be so quick to jump to conclusions
when you next reply to my message ;)
BMR.

But!!!!! :-)

I took you at your word....Perhaps you could be less ambiguous?

:-)

JAS

2005-11-12 01:35:29 UTC

Post by JAS
On the other hand it is likely; this disease is hard to pinpoint. He was
supposedly ill with a chest infection the week before. No doubt he was
run down with the stress of the election -especially the alleged real
conspiracy of the Exclusive Brethren (who also "helped" Bush) -National
million dollar libel mail drop which caused a drop in Green votes -not
enough to knock them out as National hoped, but enough to prevent them
from going into coalition. Rod was the main spokesperson for the Greens
and their most articulate member.

As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

I am not a Green, though I have voted for them, as I have for other parties.
I do not think it is a conspiracy; but it is always a possibility. Many
people DO think it is one (including about 5 I talked to today..and most not
Greens) . Conspiracies do happen, as anyone who knows history will tell you.
The EB letter drop is a conspiracy we know of.

Suggesting conspiracy theory is an attempt to discredit people without
though like a swear word or insult.

Post by steve
Yes...such poor judgement on your part is a great pity.

BMR

2005-11-12 02:20:42 UTC

Post by steve
That you would discount valid policy and good ideas because of posts to
nz.general by one person - who may or may not be a Green?

Suggesting conspiracy theory is an attempt to discredit people without
though like a swear word or insult.

I agree! So it is a pitty that Janice and yourself have raised it.

BMR.

steve

2005-11-12 05:02:36 UTC

Post by JAS
I am not a Green, though I have voted for them, as I have for other
parties. I do not think it is a conspiracy; but it is always a
possibility. Many people DO think it is one (including about 5 I talked to
today..and most not Greens) . Conspiracies do happen, as anyone who knows
history will tell you. The EB letter drop is a conspiracy we know of.
Suggesting conspiracy theory is an attempt to discredit people without
though like a swear word or insult.

Lacking the evidence to support their view, or discredit your suggestion,
and also lacking the integrity to simply say they do not KNOW....that's
about all that's left to them.

John B

2005-11-12 09:11:19 UTC

Post by JAS
I do not think it is a conspiracy; but
it is always a possibility. Many people DO think it is
one (including about 5 I talked to today..and most not
Greens) .

Oh here we go, JAS has the little voices in her head, again! MANY
people equals 5 schizo voices in her head. ROFL

John B

2005-11-12 09:08:20 UTC

Post by JAS
On the other hand it is likely; this disease is hard to
pinpoint. He was supposedly ill with a chest infection
the week before. No doubt he was run down with the
stress of the election -especially the alleged real
conspiracy of the Exclusive Brethren (who also "helped"
Bush) -National million dollar libel mail drop which
caused a drop in Green votes -not enough to knock them
out as National hoped, but enough to prevent them from
going into coalition. Rod was the main spokesperson for
the Greens and their most articulate member.

As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose
all credibility when you tout such far-fetched
conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

That you would discount valid policy and good ideas
because of posts to nz.general by one person - who may or
may not be a Green?
Yes...such poor judgement on your part is a great pity.

He was talking about credibility. As usual, you fucked up yet
again! Wipe your chin Rural.

GreenBaitor

2005-11-11 23:14:55 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

So you "dump' on the greens because "someone" makes excuses for them ?

LOL ... you made your point very clear !

BMR

2005-11-12 00:22:50 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

So you "dump' on the greens because "someone" makes excuses for them ?
LOL ... you made your point very clear !

You obviously haven't understood what I said. Please give you best attempt
at re-reading it and let me know if you still need some help.

BMR.

steve

2005-11-12 01:01:15 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

So you "dump' on the greens because "someone" makes excuses for them ?
LOL ... you made your point very clear !

You obviously haven't understood what I said. Please give you best attempt
at re-reading it and let me know if you still need some help.
BMR.

Well no who has responded so far seems to have understood what you meant
(being instead confused by what you said).

:-)

BMR

2005-11-12 02:18:37 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

So you "dump' on the greens because "someone" makes excuses for them ?
LOL ... you made your point very clear !

You obviously haven't understood what I said. Please give you best attempt
at re-reading it and let me know if you still need some help.
BMR.

Well no who has responded so far seems to have understood what you meant
(being instead confused by what you said).
:-)

In your opinion... Which is quite a different thing from a fact ;)

BMR.

steve

2005-11-12 05:03:39 UTC

Post by BMR
As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all
credibility when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.
BMR.

So you "dump' on the greens because "someone" makes excuses for them ?
LOL ... you made your point very clear !

You obviously haven't understood what I said. Please give you best attempt
at re-reading it and let me know if you still need some help.
BMR.

Well no who has responded so far seems to have understood what you meant
(being instead confused by what you said).
:-)

In your opinion... Which is quite a different thing from a fact ;)
BMR.

No. Not opinion.

Read the posts up to that point. Everyone who answered read it the same way
I did.

That's a fact.

John B

2005-11-12 09:13:28 UTC

Post by BMR
In your opinion... Which is quite a different thing from
a fact ;)
BMR.

No. Not opinion.
Read the posts up to that point. Everyone who answered
read it the same way I did.
That's a fact.

Oh no it's not. It's a damned lie from the most prolific liar
here... Rural! Wipe your chin.

JAS

2005-11-12 01:49:47 UTC

Post by JAS
On the other hand it is likely; this disease is hard to pinpoint. He was
supposedly ill with a chest infection the week before. No doubt he was
run down with the stress of the election -especially the alleged real
conspiracy of the Exclusive Brethren (who also "helped" Bush) -National
million dollar libel mail drop which caused a drop in Green votes -not
enough to knock them out as National hoped, but enough to prevent them
from going into coalition. Rod was the main spokesperson for the Greens
and their most articulate member.

As always, the Green's have some great ideas, but loose all credibility
when you tout such far-fetched conspiracy theories.
It's a great pity.

It's a great pity you did not bother to read the post...there are NO
conspiracy theories...simply a search for the facts. I said "No doubt he was
run down with the stress of the election". I think it more likely he was run
down due to a real conspiracy that we know of...and which is well documented
(with one source you left out above), the EB letter drop to most people in
the country with libelous propaganda for the National Party.

Not that conspiracies don't happen. Decisions made in private that may not
be legal happen all the time. You know that! However murder is big one that
rarely happens.

No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY sources
that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture - an educated
guess by a doctor.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0510/S00148.htm

"Brash: I knew they were going to issue some pamphlets
attacking the Government, and I said, "That's tremendous. I'm delighted
about that because the Government is lousy and should be changed." Today it
became known that the Chief Electoral Office has referred a complaint
concerning the pamphlets that 'delighted' Dr Brash to the police.

Brethren group face police probe over anti-Green propaganda
The Green Party is pleased the Chief Electoral Officer has upheld its
complaint that the Exclusive Brethren's "Beware" pamphlet may have breached
the Electoral Act.....

Mr Henry said: "I have concluded that the leaflet does appear to promote the
party vote for National. I have decided to refer the matter to police for
investigation as to whether an person has breached section 221 of the
Electoral Act 1993, and if so, whether any prosecution in terms of section
221(4) is appropriate."

Co-Leader Rod Donald says: "while I am pleased with the outcome of the
complaint, there is no way this will undo the damage done to the Green Party
by the leaflets during the election campaign.

"To add insult to injury, Even if the 'full force' of the law comes down on
the Exclusive Brethren they will only face a maximum $3000 fine.

"Their prosecution will be nothing more than a slap on the wrist with a wet
pamphlet for the obviously wealthy members of the church.

"In our view their underhanded behaviour should be a summary offence, which
would result in a fine of up to $100,000.

Post by BMR
BMR.

BTMO

2005-11-12 01:53:05 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY sources
that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture - an educated
guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.

I suggest you look that up....

Tilly

2005-11-12 09:33:42 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

--
***@hotmail.com

JAS

2005-11-12 22:22:10 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

No but Tilly seems too lazy to actually read the article which in reality
states:

"He said in his opinion the cause of death was viral myocarditis," Ms
Shirlaw said in a statement.

"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well-recognised cause of sudden death.
This condition is not immediately identifiable at autopsy as microscopic
examination is required."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=00006CE2-094D-1374-A92183027AF1010F

Notice the word "opinion".

Please, if you can tell me where you read that this organism was in fact
isolated, let me know. The symptoms of viral myocarditis may (or may not)
have been under microscopic examination, but all we have seen is an
"opinion" printed in any media I have seen, and NO actual isolated virus. I
have been asking for 2 days for someone to come up with shred of evidence
(via a reputable source) that this virus existed in his body. No one has
responded with anything beyond their personal opinion.

Post by Tilly
--

Kerry

2005-11-12 22:31:47 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

No but Tilly seems too lazy to actually read the article which in reality
"He said in his opinion the cause of death was viral myocarditis," Ms
Shirlaw said in a statement.
"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well-recognised cause of sudden death.
This condition is not immediately identifiable at autopsy as microscopic
examination is required."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=00006CE2-094D-1374-A9218302
7AF1010F
Notice the word "opinion".
Please, if you can tell me where you read that this organism was in fact
isolated, let me know. The symptoms of viral myocarditis may (or may not)
have been under microscopic examination, but all we have seen is an
"opinion" printed in any media I have seen, and NO actual isolated virus. I
have been asking for 2 days for someone to come up with shred of evidence
(via a reputable source) that this virus existed in his body. No one has
responded with anything beyond their personal opinion.

There is no one virus that causes myocarditis, many viruses can cause
it. Identifying which particular virus is not very important, they are
usually common not very harmful human viruses. The slides show
absolutely the characteristic pathology of viral myocarditis, as did the
gross pathology. These has been stated in the media several times,
stated on the radio several times, slides have been discussed in the
papers and shown on the television, not sure if they are Mr Donalds,
with explicit discussion of the abnormalities seen and expected, the
pathologist has spoken on radio and television. Cardiologists have also
spoken and been published in the media saying exactly the same things.
Indeed viral myocarditis is such a common cause of sudden death in the
young and healthy, one I have encountered on more than one occasion, it
was my pick as a cause of death before the post mortem findings.

If you have not seen or heard these things, I cannot apologise for your
lack of breadth of newsreading/watching.

If you heard and saw them yet failed to understand, I cannot account for
your ignorance.

So you didn't see it? So what, it still happened

What you are doing here is the intellectual equivalent of holding your
hands over your ears, shutting your eyes and going "Lalalalalalala I
can't hear you"

It's a style of sorts, I guess

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 22:58:24 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

Sorry, I disagree.They have NOT been shown on TV or the papers "several
times". I have also looked through many papers and also their web pages.
Nothing Kerry.

I have only seen the word "opinion".

Again, please show me a LINK to back up these statements. The SOURCES must
be somewhere on line if they have happened all the time. That is all I am
asking for. You may well be correct. I need some proof and not just your
word.

John B

2005-11-13 06:29:19 UTC

Post by JAS
Again, please show me a LINK to back up these statements.
The SOURCES must be somewhere on line if they have
happened all the time. That is all I am asking for. You
may well be correct. I need some proof and not just your
word.

Who cares what YOU think you need? Fuck off and find your own
proof either way.

Flooding this newsgroup with your crap is beyond the joke. FO!

BTMO

2005-11-12 22:36:46 UTC

Post by BTMO
Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

Yes....

It is what people in this position generally say.

Science is like that. It is all (at best) an opinion, pending further
evidence.

Post by JAS
Please, if you can tell me where you read that this organism was in fact
isolated, let me know.

Which organism do you mean?

Post by JAS
The symptoms of viral myocarditis may (or may not) have been under
microscopic examination, but all we have seen is an "opinion" printed in
any media I have seen, and NO actual isolated virus. I have been asking
for 2 days for someone to come up with shred of evidence (via a reputable
source) that this virus existed in his body. No one has responded with
anything beyond their personal opinion.

And now I understand the meaning of the word "moonbat"..

Kerry

2005-11-12 22:36:46 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

No but Tilly seems too lazy to actually read the article which in reality
"He said in his opinion the cause of death was viral myocarditis," Ms
Shirlaw said in a statement.

And again I'll state, you willfully misunderstand the use of the term
"opinion" in this context. Pathology is always an opinion, based upon
science. In this case read "opinion" as "scientific fact"

Post by JAS
"Viral myocarditis is an uncommon but well-recognised cause of sudden death.
This condition is not immediately identifiable at autopsy as microscopic
examination is required."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/search/story.cfm?storyid=00006CE2-094D-1374-A9218302
7AF1010F
Notice the word "opinion".

A word you are using in totally the wrong sense

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 23:06:11 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

No but Tilly seems too lazy to actually read the article which in reality
"He said in his opinion the cause of death was viral myocarditis," Ms
Shirlaw said in a statement.

And again I'll state, you willfully misunderstand the use of the term
"opinion" in this context. Pathology is always an opinion, based upon
science. In this case read "opinion" as "scientific fact".

Well one's understanding of the word "opinion" generally is not the same as
fact -is it? If it is in the world of pathology it is the same, then this
has not been properly explained by the media that I have read and seen, nor
have you presented any sources or links to demonstrate that a "fact" and
"opinion" are the same.

In most contexts this assumption of the equality of an opinion and fact
would be tantamount to insanity. However in the medical world it may not,
since medical scene is not exact. If so, then I respect you opinion in this
matter. and call it a day.

A word you are using in totally the wrong sense
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 23:49:43 UTC

Post by JAS
No one here, or in the news (that I have seen) has presented ANY
sources that the virus was isolated. As of yet it is all conjecture
- an educated guess by a doctor.

Kerry mentioned PCR.
I suggest you look that up....

Actually JAS doesn't have to go any further than the headlines in the
Herald.

No but Tilly seems too lazy to actually read the article which in reality
"He said in his opinion the cause of death was viral myocarditis," Ms
Shirlaw said in a statement.

And again I'll state, you willfully misunderstand the use of the term
"opinion" in this context. Pathology is always an opinion, based upon
science. In this case read "opinion" as "scientific fact".

A word you are using in totally the wrong sense
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

Tilly

2005-11-12 09:32:56 UTC

JAS wrote:

<clipped>

Post by JAS
Not that conspiracies don't happen. Decisions made in private that
may not be legal happen all the time. You know that! However murder
is big one that rarely happens.

Got it.
JAS suspects it was murder!
At least she has finally admitted what her suspicions are.

--
***@hotmail.com

JAS

2005-11-12 22:10:33 UTC

Post by Tilly
<clipped>

Post by JAS
Not that conspiracies don't happen. Decisions made in private that
may not be legal happen all the time. You know that! However murder
is big one that rarely happens.

Got it.
JAS suspects it was murder!
At least she has finally admitted what her suspicions are.

Sigh....NO please read it again. Unlike many New Zealanders, I personally
suspect that Donald's death was NOT murder, but viral. However as a skeptic
I would like to see or read of actual evidence of his cause of death...at
least something more than one doctor's "opinion" or ranting from the nuts on
this ng.

Tilly, I said murder is a rare form of conspiracy. Murder is generally
either spontaneous (brinkmanship) or premeditate by individuals. Political
murders rarely happens in a liberal democracy. It is too easy for one of the
conspirators to talk; the consequences of being caught are great. A
relatively free press (though admittedly much less "free" as many think) can
also be vigilant.

However, well documented political conspiratorial murders have happened
throughout history by respected historians..(why not call them onspiracy
theorists!) - from the many Roman Empire regime changes to the Tudors of
England...indeed throughout most history involving royalty in any countries.
Somehow people believe it is now impossible. It is less likely, but
certainly possible. Wellstone as Donald both had many powerful political
enemies... perhaps some who would like them dead. Some say it is possible to
introduce a virus. However it was unlikely, and I'm not sure if it would
even have been that practical (in the worse case scenario), since unlike
Wellstone the Greens remain in equal power, and I do not belive Wellstone
was murdered...though it was possible.

Call somebody a conspiracy theorist is synonymous with calling them a
deranged idiot. It simply throws the entire argument out the window and
turns it into a schoolyard brawl.

Conspiracies - as defined as illegal (or unethical) activities that occur
in collusion with more than one person - occur frequently. Most business are
conspratorial at some time or another (and most quite minor). Many faculty
meetings at universities have elments of "conspiracy" as defined above
involved.

Post by Tilly
--

Kerry

2005-11-12 22:22:51 UTC

Post by Tilly
<clipped>

Post by JAS
Not that conspiracies don't happen. Decisions made in private that
may not be legal happen all the time. You know that! However murder
is big one that rarely happens.

Got it.
JAS suspects it was murder!
At least she has finally admitted what her suspicions are.

If you won't believe the 'opinion' of a scientist with decades of
training in the determination of causes of death at the macroscopic and
microcopic level.....a scientist who holds the responsibility to
determine all such causes of death in his vicinity, and whose opinion is
sought by the country, and agreed with by his esteemed colleagues....a
scientist who has slides and photos and pathology that 100% supports a
particular pathology as the determinant of the death of an
individual.......If you won't 'believe' what you can read in the media
as 'proof'....Well there's no helping you in your willful disblief. I
realise you understand very little of that which you choose to argue here

Disbelief is your choice, it does not make you right...or even wise. It
makes you look a fool.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-12 22:48:13 UTC

Post by Tilly
<clipped>

Post by JAS
Not that conspiracies don't happen. Decisions made in private that
may not be legal happen all the time. You know that! However murder
is big one that rarely happens.

Got it.
JAS suspects it was murder!
At least she has finally admitted what her suspicions are.

No, please read my statement AGAIN. He could very well be correct (and as I
said many times I personally believe that it is likley that he is correct.)

An opinion does not mean a fact...no matter how educated this person may be.
How respected is this doctor really? Do you know of him? If one dies of a
legitmate verifiable heart attack, wound, a stroke or cancer, is this called
an "opinion" or "fact"? Are you a doctor or scientist?

Many people I have talked to are still suspicious by the word "opinion", and
need to be reassured. This is my concern.

But you did say earlier: "A pathologist always gives an opinion on cause of
death. She/he does
this based upon the mechanism of death and the concrete scientific
findings. The concrete scientific findings in this case support 100%
his proffered 'opinion' that Donald died of myocarditis." If this is true
then it is convincing enough for me. How do you know it is true: "The
concrete scientific findings in this case support 100%"?

I was asking what constituted his opinion?

Was the virus isolated? Apparently it was not. Perhaps an opinion is the
best a doctor can do in this case?

Kerry

2005-11-12 23:02:47 UTC

Post by JAS
No, please read my statement AGAIN. He could very well be correct (and as I
said many times I personally believe that it is likley that he is correct.)

But you don't believe that the use of the term 'opinion' by a scientist
means the opinion is based upon the known facts?

Post by JAS
An opinion does not mean a fact...no matter how educated this person may be.
How respected is this doctor really? Do you know of him? If one dies of a
legitmate verifiable heart attack, wound, a stroke or cancer, is this called
an "opinion" or "fact"? Are you a doctor or scientist?

He is very well qualified and respected. Any pathologist gives an
opinion as to cause of death based upon scientifically proveable fact.
You need to accept that. Scientists are much more circumspect than
quacks, who can say whatever they like with no basis in fact at all. I
realise that in people who deal with quacks this creates uncertainties
about the certainties of opinions of scientists.

Post by JAS
Many people I have talked to are still suspicious by the word "opinion", and
need to be reassured. This is my concern.

That's your stupidity, and theirs.

Post by JAS
But you did say earlier: "A pathologist always gives an opinion on cause of
death. She/he does
this based upon the mechanism of death and the concrete scientific
findings. The concrete scientific findings in this case support 100%
his proffered 'opinion' that Donald died of myocarditis." If this is true
then it is convincing enough for me. How do you know it is true: "The
concrete scientific findings in this case support 100%"?
I was asking what constituted his opinion?
Was the virus isolated? Apparently it was not. Perhaps an opinion is the
best a doctor can do in this case?

What the virus is does not really matter. Death from viral myocarditis
is caused by the combination of infection by a usually pretty harmless
virus and the immune response of the host...which is what actually does
the damage.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-13 00:27:05 UTC

Post by JAS
No, please read my statement AGAIN. He could very well be correct (and as I
said many times I personally believe that it is likley that he is correct.)

But you don't believe that the use of the term 'opinion' by a scientist
means the opinion is based upon the known facts?

He is very well qualified and respected.

Again. Are you a doctor or scientist?

Any pathologist gives an

Post by Kerry
opinion as to cause of death based upon scientifically provable fact.

If there are in reality "scientifically provable facts" (such as isolated
virus that caused the myocarditis), I would like to see it stated from a
reputable source. I have looked many places and have seen none of the
sources you claim.

I have asked for links many times without luck.

Post by JAS
Many people I have talked to are still suspicious by the word "opinion", and
need to be reassured. This is my concern.

That's your stupidity, and theirs.

Down boy... I said their suspicions, not necessarily mine. However I am
swayed by facts.

Yes, it cannot be a "fact" like cancer or a stroke though "possible"
symptoms can be found...which you sugested which is why it is an opinion and
not a fact.

from the top post:

Myocarditis is an inflammatory disorder of the myocardium with necrosis of
the myocytes and associated inflammatory infiltrate. It is usually caused by
a viral infection, particularly adenovirus and enterovirus infections (eg,
coxsackievirus), although many infectious organisms commonly seen in infants
and children have been implicated. Occasionally, myocarditis may be a
manifestation of drug hypersensitivity or toxicity. Although the utility of
myocardial biopsy is debated, suspected myocarditis can be classified into
the following 3 types based on pathologic findings as defined in the Dallas
Criteria (1987):

a.. Active myocarditis - Characterized by abundant inflammatory cells and
myocardial necrosis

b.. Borderline myocarditis - Characterized by an inflammatory response
that is too sparse for this type to be labeled as active myocarditis;
degeneration of myocytes not demonstrated with light microscopy

c.. Nonmyocarditis
If an active or borderline inflammatory process is found, follow-up biopsies
can be subclassified into ongoing, resolving, or resolved myocarditis.

Pathophysiology: Myocarditis generally results in a decrease in myocardial
function, with concomitant enlargement of the heart and an increase in the
end-diastolic volume caused by increased preload. Normally, the heart
compensates for dilation with an increase in contractility (Starling law),
but because of inflammation and muscle damage, a heart affected with
myocarditis is unable to respond to the increase in volume. In addition,
inflammatory mediators, such as cytokines and adhesion molecules, as well as
apoptotic mechanisms are activated. The progressive increase in left
ventricular end-diastolic volume increases left atrial, pulmonary venous,
and arterial pressures, resulting in increasing hydrostatic forces. These
increased forces lead to both pulmonary edema and congestive heart failure.
Without treatment, this process may progress to end-stage cardiac failure
and death.

Myocarditis is a rare disease. The World Health Organization reports that
incidence of cardiovascular involvement after enteroviral infection is 1-4%,
depending on the causative organism. Incidence varies greatly among
countries and is related to hygiene and socioeconomic conditions.
Availability of medical services and immunizations also affect incidence.
Occasional epidemics of viral infections have been reported with an
associated higher incidence of myocarditis. Enteroviruses, such as
coxsackievirus and echovirus, and adenoviruses, particularly types 2 and 5,
are the most commonly involved organisms.

Post by Kerry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

JAS

2005-11-13 00:28:03 UTC

Post by JAS
No, please read my statement AGAIN. He could very well be correct (and as I
said many times I personally believe that it is likley that he is correct.)

But you don't believe that the use of the term 'opinion' by a scientist
means the opinion is based upon the known facts?

He is very well qualified and respected.

Again. Are you a doctor or scientist?

Any pathologist gives an

Post by Kerry
opinion as to cause of death based upon scientifically provable fact.

Post by JAS
Many people I have talked to are still suspicious by the word "opinion", and
need to be reassured. This is my concern.

That's your stupidity, and theirs.

Down boy... I said their suspicions, not necessarily mine. However I am
swayed by facts.

Post by Kerry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Laughter is the best medicine. Unless you're asthmatic, where Ventolin's
your best bet.

baggly grimmel

2005-11-13 16:29:53 UTC

["Followup-To:" header set to nz.soc.green.]

Post by JAS
Co-Leader Rod Donald says: "while I am pleased with the outcome of the
complaint, there is no way this will undo the damage done to the Green Party
by the leaflets during the election campaign.
"To add insult to injury, Even if the 'full force' of the law comes down on
the Exclusive Brethren they will only face a maximum $3000 fine.
"Their prosecution will be nothing more than a slap on the wrist with a wet
pamphlet for the obviously wealthy members of the church.
"In our view their underhanded behaviour should be a summary offence, which
would result in a fine of up to $100,000.

No, $3000 is probably enough, just treat each pamphlet as a separate

offence.

Bye.
Jasen

Oppressive stupidity really, what about freedom of speech. I would think,
in the unlikely event, that if any group paid for and distributed pro green
party pamphlets the disingenuous greens would be vigorously defending a
contrary view to their present stand.

JAS

2005-11-12 01:30:54 UTC

<unbelievable garbage>
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death? That's obviously
what you are trying to say whilst being too embarassed to say it,
right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused by the Greens
loosing seats due to the Brethren propaganda spree days before the election.
Did you see the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding the "E
Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on TV?

And you think the Brethren should be fined the maximum possible under
any interpretation of the law, for their criminal act of USING FREE
SPEECH?

Sure calling the Greens policy reminiscent of communism and saying they
would "disarm NZ" along with dozen other bit of lies and 1/2 truths is "free
speech"...while outspending the Greens 10:1.

John B

2005-11-12 09:07:02 UTC

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:44:04 +1300, "JAS"
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death?
That's obviously what you are trying to say whilst being
too embarassed to say it, right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused
by the Greens loosing seats due to the Brethren
propaganda spree days before the election. Did you see
the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding
the "E Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on TV?

You are fucked in the head. The guy was a security guard. He was
there to stop people entering the property univited.

JAS

2005-11-12 23:50:35 UTC

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:44:04 +1300, "JAS"
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death?
That's obviously what you are trying to say whilst being
too embarassed to say it, right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused
by the Greens loosing seats due to the Brethren
propaganda spree days before the election. Did you see
the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding
the "E Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on TV?

I am fucked in the head. The guy was a security guard. He was
there to stop people entering the property univited.

Same thing.

John B

2005-11-13 06:33:45 UTC

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:44:04 +1300, "JAS"
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death?
That's obviously what you are trying to say whilst
being too embarassed to say it, right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused
by the Greens loosing seats due to the Brethren
propaganda spree days before the election. Did you see
the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding
the "E Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on
TV?

JASis fucked in the head. The guy was a security guard.
He was there to stop people entering the property
univited.

Same thing.

You have no credibility whatsoever and here you go once again
forging someone's posts to change what they said.

What a despicable yellow backed coward you are.

Squirrel

2005-11-13 07:49:58 UTC

Post by John B

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:44:04 +1300, "JAS"
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death?
That's obviously what you are trying to say whilst
being too embarassed to say it, right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused
by the Greens loosing seats due to the Brethren
propaganda spree days before the election. Did you see
the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding
the "E Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on
TV?

JASis fucked in the head. The guy was a security guard.
He was there to stop people entering the property
univited.

Same thing.

You have no credibility whatsoever and here you go once again
forging someone's posts to change what they said.
What a despicable yellow backed coward you are.

ROFL!!!!!!!!! so original.....not
I think extreme heterosexuality is a perversion - Margaret Mead

JAS

2005-11-13 20:17:22 UTC

Post by Squirrel

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 10:44:04 +1300, "JAS"
So the Brethren are to blame for Donald's death?
That's obviously what you are trying to say whilst
being too embarassed to say it, right?

Of course not! What I said is that it was stress caused
by the Greens loosing seats due to the Brethren
propaganda spree days before the election. Did you see
the Mafiosi thug out of the godfather who was guarding
the "E Brethren" who helped organize the mail drop on
TV?

JASis fucked in the head. The guy was a security guard.
He was there to stop people entering the property
univited.

Same thing.

I have no credibility whatsoever

I will continue to do so as long as you keep up the sick troll activity.

Post by Squirrel

What a despicable yellow backed coward you are.

ROFL!!!!!!!!! so original.....not
I think extreme heterosexuality is a perversion - Margaret Mead

John B

2005-11-14 06:35:16 UTC

JAS is fucked in the head. The guy was a security
guard. He was there to stop people entering the
property univited.

Same thing.

All quite legal and moral.

JAS has admitted she is a forger and has no credibility

whatsoever

Post by JAS
I will continue to do so as long as you keep up the sick
troll activity.

There you go then. You have clearly admitted you post forgeries.
Clearly you are a liar and have NO integrity or principles, and
yet you wonder why everyone thinks you're stark raving bonkers!!

Fruitcake yellow-backed coward.

Squirrel

2005-11-14 07:38:36 UTC

Post by John B

JAS is fucked in the head. The guy was a security
guard. He was there to stop people entering the
property univited.

Same thing.

All quite legal and moral.

JAS has admitted she is a forger and has no credibility

whatsoever

Post by JAS
I will continue to do so as long as you keep up the sick
troll activity.

repetitive boring guitar playing (bollocks you do) scum bag, dont
ignore me JB go on do your pathetic worst lol

Vermin
I think extreme heterosexuality is a perversion - Margaret Mead

k***@gmail.com

2005-11-12 22:57:36 UTC

Interesting, very interesting indeed.

It's also funny how this "accidental" tragedy happened so soon after
the election in which the Greens fared relatively poorly. Not that I'm
suggesting anything, but isn't it the case that candidates further down
on the Green Party list would have benefited from Mr Donald's
"untimely" passing?

BrentC

2005-11-13 07:55:43 UTC

Post by k***@gmail.com
Interesting, very interesting indeed.
It's also funny how this "accidental" tragedy happened so soon after
the election in which the Greens fared relatively poorly. Not that I'm
suggesting anything, but isn't it the case that candidates further down
on the Green Party list would have benefited from Mr Donald's
"untimely" passing?

Yep yep

Like all good investigations

First question is "who benefits"

JAS

2005-11-13 20:18:52 UTC

"BrentC"

Post by BrentC

Yep yep
Like all good investigations
First question is "who benefits"

and

this was my question on the Higgens and Wellstone Investigation:

... the urban legend of Stanley Huggins in right winged conspiracy
theory. http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm

Actually Stanley Huggins DID actually die of viral myocarditis (and
bronchial pneumonia) according to records...kinda makes you think.

On the other hand They (National and his EB gang of thugs) did spend
millions
in order to get rid of the Greens. It didn't fully work, but it prevented
them from gaining coalition power. Now this is a criminal conspiracy, and
has been more or less proven. Rod Donald was the most articulate and popular
of the Greens.

A mystery...a bit like the relatively recent suspicious Senator Wellstone
death (The popular and leftish US senator who is the subject of a great
conspiracy theory books...not entirely without merit.)
Although no one can prove exactly what happened in the events leading to
Wellstone's death, these two Ph.D.s point out the official story's
inconsistencies and deliberate omissions. With a methodical argument, they
present evidence of an official cover-up, a compelling motive for
Wellstone's
assassination and advance a more likely explanation for how Senator
Wellstone's plane was taken down. Their findings include new evidence and
alternative hypotheses that were never considered by the NTSB:

. There was never any distress call from the pilots. Communication was
somehow cut off shortly before the crash.

. NTSB's Carol Carmody handled the Wellstone case. A former CIA official,
Carmody is a damage-control expert who handled the NTSB's investigation of
the suspicious aircraft crash of Democratic Senatorial candidate Mel
Carnahan, exactly two years earlier.

. NTSB is legally mandated to take jurisdiction over a crash scene, yet it
allowed the FBI to control the scene--and then neglected to cite the FBI's
involvement in presence in the NTSB's final report.

. Some witnesses heard the engines cutting out, a phenomenon not consistent
with a stall.

. Others reported odd cell-phone and garage-door phenomena that were taking
place about the same time the plane lost both communications and control.

. The NTSB's own simulations, which replicated properties like those of King
Air A-100s under similar conditions, were unable to bring the plane
down-even when conducted under abnormally slow speeds!

. One of the members who actually signed the report, Richard Healing,
admitted that they really had no idea what had caused the plane to crash.

Since becoming active in this issue, local residents have contacted
Professor Fetzer and related strange electronic interference in the area at
the time of the crash. One experienced an odd cell-phone phenomenon with a
form of static he had never heard before. Its auditory pattern appears to be
similar to that of "electro-magnetic pulse" (EMP) weapons recently developed
by the Pentagon to jam the computer-assisted controls of enemy aircraft.

Reports of garage doors that mysteriously opened in the immediate vicinity
are surfacing. And radar images from the time of the plane crashes of
Senator Carnahan and of Senator Wellstone are suggestive of EMP imprints.
These weapons not only jam a plane's electronics but also disable its radio
communications.

In the wake of the crash, 69% of Minnesoteans blamed a "GOP Conspiracy" for
Wellstone's death. This book makes the case that, in this case, at least,
the people had it right.

In appendices to AMERICAN ASSASSINATION, Paul Wellstone's courageous stands
against the rich and powerful continue to inspire us. It presents highlights
from Wellstone's platform and includes his important speech, "On Iraq."

His opposition to the Bush administration helps the reader to understand why
the Senator was a likely target for assassination. When the reader meets
Wellstone in his own words, his vision is kept alive and lives on in each of
us.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975276301/104-1852533-2552732?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance

JAS

2005-11-13 20:24:17 UTC