Discussion:
"The Green Delusion" dirty tricks campaign against the Green Party: point-by-point rebuttal
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Alan Liefting
2005-09-03 08:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Dirty tricks campaign: point-by-point rebuttal
Jeanette Fitzsimons MP, Green Party Co-Leader
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/other9194.html

3rd September 2005


The leaflet "The Green Delusion" has a section headlined "The GREENS
Policies", which is strewn with lies and half-truths. Below, we compare
the pamphlet's claims with our policies' reality.


Summary:
Outright lies: 7
Half Truths: 7
True Statements: 1
Claim: Introduce capital gains on family homes
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

The Greens do not have a policy that a capital gains tax should be
introduced, let alone on the family home. We believe New Zealand should
investigate whether introducing a capital gains tax exempting the family
home would be good for our country. It could for example help reduce
interest rates and house prices, as well as allowing cuts to personal
and company tax. A capital gains tax exempting the family home already
exists in Australia.
Claim: Increase petrol and diesel taxes - increasing diesel prices by 30%
Status: Half truth
Our policy:

We do not have a policy to increase petrol excise duty. Currently petrol
users pay some of their petrol tax towards the health costs of air
pollution and similar problems. Diesel users are exempt from this
contribution. We think this is unfair, especially as diesel causes some
of the worst pollution, and we would end the tax exemption. Diesel
prices would increase but by much less than 30% as is claimed, and
diesel would still be considerably cheaper than petrol. We would also
exempt bio-diesel from the health charges as it is less polluting -
giving people a cleaner, cheaper option.

This is part of our tax shift package, which also includes making the
first $5000 tax free - giving people about $15/week in the hand, which
more than offsets any increased costs.


Claim: Introduce a carbon tax, putting petrol prices up by a further 10%.
Status: Half truth
Our policy:

Labour and the Greens support a carbon tax as part of tackling global
climate change. Doing nothing will cost us far more. It is estimated
that the carbon tax will increase petrol prices by 4 or 5 cents a litre.
At current petrol prices, this is a 3% increase, not a 10% increase.

The Greens' overall tax policy is aimed not at raising taxes, but at
shifting them. We propose "ecological tax reform", which would move
taxes off work and enterprise (so, the first $5000 of everyone's income
would be tax free) and on to waste and pollution. So while the carbon
and diesel tax changes would increase costs by around $6-7/week - people
will get $15/week extra in the hand when the first $5000 is tax free.

Overall, it means around $8-9/week more in the hand and you get to help
save the world!


Claim: Support the Kyoto protocol - the one billion dollar bungle.
Status: Half truth
Our policy:

The Greens proudly support the Kyoto Protocol - but it isn't a "billion
dollar bungle". Climate change is the gravest environmental challenge
facing the world, and the Kyoto Protocol is the best mechanism humanity
has found for combating it. We believe New Zealand should stand with the
155 other countries who've signed Kyoto and wish to combat climate
change, rather than with the two (the United States and Australia) who
have their heads in the sand.

The Kyoto Protocol will only cost New Zealand money if we do nothing.
However, if we make New Zealand a less carbon-intensive place - by using
more public transport, more fuel-efficient cars, more freight on rail -
then Kyoto will earn us money. It's an opportunity, not an inevitable cost.


Claim: Add 4 new Government ministries, 6 agencies and 5 commissions -
more bureaucrats including a resident artist.
Status: Half Truth
Our policy:

The Greens have proposed a number of specific small agencies that we
believe target gaps in policy (eg Waste Minimisation, Urban Affairs). We
also believe in a strong, quality public service so that all Kiwis are
able to access what they need - such as health care and a good
education. We believe big, across-the-board tax cuts equal big,
across-the-board public service cuts.

Some of our policies do call for the establishment of new agencies,
however most are aimed at refocusing current government agencies (eg
reforming the Electricity Commission into the Sustainable Energy
Commission). Most of our proposals are modest, many could be met from
existing resources and we do not envisage a significantly larger public
sector under the Greens.


Claim: Cut defence spending by 50% and disarm our forces
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

We do not suggest disarming our forces. The "50%" claim is based on our
1999 opposition to National buying F16 fighters. Currently we support
some refocussing of spending towards creating a civil defence,
peacekeeping and resource protection capacity. We believe it is possible
to phase-out the two frigates and introduce vessels more suited to the
South Pacific, creating some savings. We also support raising New
Zealand foreign aid budget almost three-fold, from the current 0.24% of
GDP to 0.7% of GDP. If this package of Green ideas was implemented, the
amount of money the Government spends on making the world a safer place
(defence, peacebuilding, foreign aid) would not decrease.
Claim: Ban the building of new prisons
Status: True
Our policy:

The Greens want Justice reforms to put victims at the centre of the
Justice system. We will review the adequacy of support for victims and
their families. We do not believe building new prisons does anything to
combat crime in New Zealand. Kiwis should be very concerned that New
Zealand has the second-highest rate of imprisonment in the Western
world, below only the United States. Imprisonment is very ineffective in
preventing people from re-offending, and the Greens believe that
tackling the causes of crime - such as poverty and unemployment - is a
much more effective way of keeping New Zealand safer than locking up
criminals for longer and longer.


Claim: Spend roading money on uneconomic and novel public transport systems.
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

There is no such thing as "roading money". Money is allocated to the
Government's "land transport fund", for use on the roading network and
public transport infrastructure. The Greens and Labour have worked
together on transport since National left office in 1999. In that time,
the amount of money spent on roading has increased by 67% and the amount
of money spent on public transport has increased by 510%.

Public transport systems are a far more cost-effective way of getting
people around and between cities than single occupancy vehicles. All our
proposals are based on proven approaches that have delivered better
transport around the world. Criticising the Greens for offering people
convenient, affordable alternatives to cars is especially bizarre, given
that increasing petrol prices is quickly making high car use a preserve
of the rich. We must build up public transport systems so that ordinary
Kiwis have ways of getting around when petrol simply becomes too
expensive for those on middle and low incomes.
Claim: Block construction of vital new roads with tortuous RMA regulations.
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

The Resource Management Act does not "block" the construction of any new
roads. Rather, it is a process for allowing everyone affected by a new
project to have a say in whether it should go ahead. National proposes
that new developments should be rail-roaded through, even against strong
opposition from local communities, environmental organisations, and
adjacent landowners. This is an affront to democracy.


Claim: Push high country farmers off their lease-hold land.
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

The Greens do not propose to "push" anybody off lease-hold land. Any
moves to review the tenure of high country farms will be open to
considerable consultation and negotiation. The South Island high country
contains a great deal of ecologically sensitive land which is owned by
the Government and which has been downgraded by grazing. Furthermore,
much of this land has been rented out to farmers at rents that have not
been adjusted for inflation for many years, which means they're leasing
it off the public at prices much lower than the land's actual worth.

The Greens support the current tenure review process, which will attempt
to ensure that conservation values are protected, so that New Zealand's
natural heritage is not lost forever. We also believe that farmers
leasing high country land off the Crown should be paying a fair price
for it, commensurate with its commercial value.
Claim: Permit the right-to-roam over private property
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

The Greens' land access policy specifically excludes the right to roam.
We propose to appoint an access commissioner to build relationships
between land owners and land users, and negotiate access arrangements -
for example, along rivers - so that public access weighs up the right of
everyone to access waterways with the right of landowners to have
unimpeded control of their land.


Claim: Decriminalise illegal drugs like cannabis (marijuana)
Status: Half-truth
Our policy:

The Greens propose an instant fine system for personal use of cannabis.
drug dealers and anybody selling cannabis near or to children would feel
the full force of the law, and people under 18 caught using cannabis
would be forced to have drug education programmes. We have never
proposed decriminalising other drugs.

The current prohibition framework with cannabis means that many Kiwis,
including children, are exposed to gangs and other criminal forces
because the sale of cannabis is driven underground. The current
framework also allows gangs to finance themselves through the sale of
cannabis. The Greens' moderate, mainstream policy on cannabis is an
attempt to address these societal harms, and has been endorsed by
leading medical researchers.


Claim: Offer financial assistance to cannabis growers for alternative
employment.
Status: Outright Lie
Our policy:

Our drugs policy does not include offering financial assistance to
cannabis growers. This is wrong and offensive. However, we do believe
that industrial hemp - which has no psychoactive properties at all - is
a worthwhile crop that New Zealand should investigate developing. Used
in many other countries, hemp is useful for making rope, clothes and
other household items.


Claim: Create 'rainbow' communities. Legalise adoption for same-sex couples.
Status: Half-truth
Our policy:

"Rainbow" communities - that is, communities of gay, lesbian,
transgender and bisexual Kiwis - already exist. The Greens will not be
"creating" them, or forcing anybody to be gay, or any other sexual
orientation. We believe that all Kiwis, regardless of their sexual
orientation, deserve respect, and we affirm and celebrate New Zealand as
a diverse, tolerant country, and reject bigotry in all its forms. We
believe that a couple's parenting skills should be the primary factor
when considering eligibility for adoption, not their sexual orientation.
Claim: the Greens voted against protecting private property rights
Status: Half-truth
Our policy:

The Greens voted against an Act Party Member's Bill to give private
property the same status as human rights - as did the Labour Party and
other parties in Parliament.
BrentC
2005-09-03 11:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Phew - read the dribble

When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
Barb Knox
2005-09-03 20:49:57 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spaare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit,
| B B a a r b b | altum viditur.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
BrentC
2005-09-03 21:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spaare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
That's easy - donations from the Global Warming gravy train ?
Barb Knox
2005-09-03 21:29:59 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
That's easy - donations from the Global Warming gravy train ?
Got any evidence? ISTM the Big Bucks in the global warming debate are
on the side of the oil companies, oil service companies (Haliburton,
etc.), the financial backers of the current US administration, etc.
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit,
| B B a a r b b | altum viditur.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
BrentC
2005-09-03 22:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
That's easy - donations from the Global Warming gravy train ?
Got any evidence? ISTM the Big Bucks in the global warming debate are
on the side of the oil companies, oil service companies (Haliburton,
etc.), the financial backers of the current US administration, etc.
Evidence? - gee wizz Barb - this is Usenet - you don't need evidence.


Like the Green Party - you just float a line out and see what hook -
or you chuck some BS and see who it sticks too.
Barb Knox
2005-09-03 23:27:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
That's easy - donations from the Global Warming gravy train ?
Got any evidence? ISTM the Big Bucks in the global warming debate are
on the side of the oil companies, oil service companies (Haliburton,
etc.), the financial backers of the current US administration, etc.
Evidence? - gee wizz Barb - this is Usenet - you don't need evidence.
Maybe you don't, but some of like to base our beliefs on at least an
approximation of reality.
Post by BrentC
Like the Green Party - you just float a line out and see what hook -
or you chuck some BS and see who it sticks too.
Eh? Where did I do that? ISTM so far that's rather more YOUR line....
--
---------------------------
| BBB b \ Barbara at LivingHistory stop co stop uk
| B B aa rrr b |
| BBB a a r bbb | Quidquid latine dictum sit,
| B B a a r b b | altum viditur.
| BBB aa a r bbb |
-----------------------------
BrentC
2005-09-03 23:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Post by Barb Knox
BrentC
Post by BrentC
Phew - read the dribble
When are the twins going to come clean on the fact that they spread
the pamphlets to get some much needed media attention
One immediate problem with that theory is that the Greens are hardly
flush with money, so where did they get the $100,000 (the estimated cost
of the pamphlet drop)? And if somehow they had a spare $100,000, I
expect they'd spend it on more TV ads.
That's easy - donations from the Global Warming gravy train ?
Got any evidence? ISTM the Big Bucks in the global warming debate are
on the side of the oil companies, oil service companies (Haliburton,
etc.), the financial backers of the current US administration, etc.
Evidence? - gee wizz Barb - this is Usenet - you don't need evidence.
Maybe you don't, but some of like to base our beliefs on at least an
approximation of reality.
Post by BrentC
Like the Green Party - you just float a line out and see what hook -
or you chuck some BS and see who it sticks too.
Eh? Where did I do that? ISTM so far that's rather more YOUR line....
No one said you did - I was implying that that is what the Green Party
does - particuarly over the latest Pamphlet BS
George.com
2005-09-04 09:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Liefting
Dirty tricks campaign: point-by-point rebuttal
Jeanette Fitzsimons MP, Green Party Co-Leader
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/other9194.html
3rd September 2005
The leaflet "The Green Delusion" has a section headlined "The GREENS
Policies", which is strewn with lies and half-truths. Below, we compare
the pamphlet's claims with our policies' reality.
a possible source of the pamphlet, the blue-greens.
http://www.bluegreens.org.nz/
Someone who wrote the pamphlet has a socialist phobia. You get the odd foam
at the mouth-I hate socialism type (the type who rant on and on about
socialism to the point of creaming themselves in rage) in National and a
good sprinkling of them in ACT.

rob

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